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Office of Cuba Broadcasting of the United States Government

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a consensus to deprecate any platforms operated by the Office of Cuba Broadcasting of the U.S. Agency for Global Media, including but not limited to Radio y Television Martí (RyTM) and its website, martinoticias.com. Although deprecation is an extreme remedy, most editors in the discussion agreed with Chetsford analysis of reliable sources that have criticized RyTM for its poor editorial controls that fall below professional standards of journalism, presenting opinion as fact, reporting on unsubstantiated information, and promoting propaganda, including anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. The arguments in favor of applying additional considerations or labelling RyTM generally unreliable did not respond to the source anaysis. I will draft something for RSPS and post it there. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)


Are the platforms of the Office of Cuba Broadcasting of the United States Federal Government's U.S. Agency for Global Media (including Radio y Television Marti, RyTM's website Martínoticias.com, and any publicly undisclosed entities):

Note: A previous RfC dealt with the U.S. Agency for Global Media (AGM) of which Radio y Television Marti is one of its DBA names. Half of the participating editors, as of this date stamp and excluding nom, have requested individual DBA names of USAGM be addressed as separate RfCs and indicated their belief that the original RfC is malformed by not doing so. Chetsford (talk) 00:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Survey (Office of Cuba Broadcasting)

  • 4 While it's possible to find individual instances of WP:USEBYOTHERS, implicit in that is the idea that refusal of use by others (when stated) acts as a rejoinder. Moreover, common sense would dictate that robust content analysis on an outlet's unreliability or propensity to publish falsehoods should be given more weight in source evaluation than a drive-by "according to X" mention in a different RS. In this case:
  • A 1992 report by the GAO found that OCB's inhouse "critic and his predecessor have repeatedly expressed concern about editorializing" while two outside consultants found its "programs lacked balance and did not comply with standards". [1]
  • A decade later, nothing had improved. That year, the GAO found that, from 2004-2007, Radio y Television Marti had a "perpetually poor standard of journalism", editorialized "the presentation of individual views as news", incorporated "offensive and incendiary language" in its reporting, and reported on "unsubstantiated" rumors. [2]
  • In a 2006 headline, the New York Times described RyTM as "U.S. propaganda". [3]
  • In 2018, Mother Jones chronicled the aggressive and questionable tone of Radio y Television Marti's reporting, including its news reports that deounced George Soros is a "multimillionaire Jew" and the "architect of the financial collapse of 2008". [4]
  • In 2019, journalism professors at USC and journalists from Telemundo concluded Radio y Television Marti was "riddled with bad journalism" and "propaganda". [5]
  • A 2019 article in Tufts Universitys Fletcher Forum of World Affairs classified RyTM as part of a medley of U.S. Government "influence operations". [6]
  • As recently as 2021, USAGM's own staff -- including staff from RyTM -- stated that management meddled with editorial independence by taking "actions that did not align with USAGM’s firewall principles". [7]
Chetsford (talk) 00:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
  • 2 or 3 Don’t see any need to deprecate, but also not sure where this source would be used for given it’s a US outlet aimed at Cuba staffed by Cuban exiles. Clearly biased, if used, should be used with caution. Toa Nidhiki05 05:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
  • 2 both pre and post 2017 There are some (concerning, but not catastrophic) issues and clear bias, but relatively insignificant issues with quality and clear bias does not make a source unreliable per se. Therefore caution should be applied, particularly when using it for controversial issues. FortunateSons (talk) 12:53, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
  • 4. It's a propaganda outlet broadcasting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, among other things. Cortador (talk) 14:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
  • 4 per the sources presented by Chetsford. While biased sources can sometimes be used, sources that publish false or misleading information cannot; and sources that have a systematic bias that pushes them to intentionally publish false things are one of the cases that deprecation exists for. Bad journalism alone would just be unreliability, but systematic bad journalism in the service of a particular perspective is not something we ought to use as a source anywhere, because it is clear that the problems are not simple incompetence but the result deliberate intent. The OCB has done things like creating fake social media accounts to spread propaganda, or pay journalists under the table to press a particular point of view. We wouldn't accept a source like this from any other government; when a source is outright being used as an example of government-run propaganda in most academic studies discussing it, we're past the point where there's anything salvageable to it. --Aquillion (talk) 16:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
  • 4 per Aquillion and Chetsford. Anything notable enough to include in an article would have much better sources. NightHeron (talk) 16:56, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
  • 4 This is a source explicitly designed to deceive and disseminate propaganda. Simonm223 (talk) 17:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
  • 3 per u:Chetsford's arguments. Alaexis¿question? 19:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
  • 4 An explicit state-sponsored propaganda outfit with no desire or ability to check facts.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
  • 4 The difference between 3 and 4 for me is whether a source is merely failing to verify facts, or if it's outright attempting to deceive. Many sources have no fact-checking process, but because they're not attempting to deceive they can at least be counted on for very basic things like what their own opinions are or certain kinds of direct quotes. Propaganda outlets like the OCB don't even meet that bar: since they're trying to lie to the reader, the appropriate thing to do when they say something is to think it's less likely to be true than it was before. Loki (talk) 22:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (Office of Cuba Broadcasting)

What sites are covered by this RfC? Template:Link summary might be useful here to understand the extent of usage on Wikipedia. - Amigao (talk) 21:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

This RfC covers the Office of Cuba Broadcasting (OCB) and any platforms it operates.
As of the date-stamp, OCB is known to operate two platforms: Radio y Television Marti (broadcast) and martinoticias.com (online). There is functionally no difference between RyTM and martinoticias.com (i.e. CNN and cnn.com; Fox News and foxnews.com, etc.).
Because this RfC covers OCB and any platforms it operates, it would also include platforms the existence of which is not today publicly known. In other words, if — next year — it was discovered OCB was covertly publishing a bimonthly magazine called ¡Ahora o Nunca!, that magazine would be covered by the RfC unless it were disentangled through a separate RfC. (The construction of the RfC in this way is necessary due to other USAGM brands having been previously discovered disseminating lies about the identity of their controlling mind, relationship to one another, or even the very fact of their existence. See, for example: [8]).) Chetsford (talk) 22:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
So around 56 links in the mainspace as of the time stamp. - Amigao (talk) 13:50, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
While RS evaluation doesn't necessarily preclude OR, I'll try to avoid it as it's not necessary in this case due to the vast array of evidence that already exists, however, I do note instances of martinoticias.com being used to source articles on baseball players stating that they "defected from" Cuba while all other RS (that aren't, themselves, sourcing martinoticias.com) are using a much more moderate "immigrated from" instead. This seems to validate what the sources suggest is RyTM's editorial objective of reporting whatever wild and unrestrained assertions it feels useful to undermining the vanguard role of the PCC, even if those assertions are completely untethered from reality. Chetsford (talk) 18:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Dedham Times

I'd like to continue a discussion (previously here) about the reliability of The Dedham Times, a local newspaper in Massachusetts, US. While the paper's website gives no information about staff, this obituary indicates the paper is now run by two brothers: Scott Heald as "managing editor" and James Heald as "publisher" (which I interpret as a non-editorial role). Many stories do not have a reporter listed; those that do list Scott Heald as the reporter. If the managing editor is also the primary reporter, there is no editorial oversight, and thus I think this should be treated as a self-published source. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 07:30, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  • Reliable That obituary indicates that there have been at least three different owners of the newspaper, which has been continuously published for over 30 years. Yes, the obit indicates that two of them are from the Heald family, but that's not uncommon among newspapers. The Taylor family owned and published The Boston Globe for 126 years; the current owner installed his wife as the managing director. The Sulzbergers have been publishing the New York Times for 128. I don't think any one would argue that they are not reliable simply due to family ties.
Additionally, the citation in question in this article has an author whose last name is not Heald. In another article, the Dedham Times is cited with two other authors. This article has four more authors. This one has another. I could go on, but I think you get the point. --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 22:53, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Is there some sort of reputation for errors of fact or distortionist publishing that either the Dedham Times or the Healds have? This being the apparent newspaper of record for a city, and it evidently having a newspaper staff beyond Scott Heald, I'm not really seeing enough to bring me into agreement with the OP's case for unreliability or self-publication. I'll add that newspapers don't always list an author for articles, resulting in articles being credited to the paper itself. Having no byline wouldn't make this New York Times article, just as an example, self-published either, I think. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 05:14, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Seems reliable to me per Slugger O'Toole. It's a local newspaper but it seems fine. PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Echoing what's already been stated above - it's a local paper of record with nothing indicating unreliability thus far. I wouldn't quite put it on the level of more established sources, but it seems solid for local news concerning its region. The Kip 17:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Can I use this as a Reliable source? [Westminster Institute]

This publication, on page 6, says, "For the jihadist, spreading Islam and having someone obstruct you in that process is an attack on Islam. Therefore you are already in a defensive posture and nobody has used a gun on the other side. War is thus triggered simply because the other does not want to be a Muslim". Can I paraphrase that sentence and use that publication as a reliable source in the lead of the Kafir article? Will it need attribution, that is, should any sentence I add using that as a source begin with, "According to...... "?-Haani40 (talk) 12:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Dr Sebastian Gorka will provide jfc 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Published by the Westminster Institute, a nn crank right-wing outfit. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Online, it says, "Westminster Institute is a think tank dedicated to individual liberty, highlighting the threats from extremists and radical ideologies. Located in McLean, ..."-Haani40 (talk) 12:39, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Online is not useful, who says that? Slatersteven (talk) 12:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
I am planning to paraphrase it like this,

While spreading Islam, if anybody obstructs the jihadist, it is considered as an attack on Islam. You are, as a result, already in a defensive stance and the opposing side has not even used a gun. War is therefore started just because someone else chooses not to follow Islam.

-Haani40 (talk) 12:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
We do not parrot the opinions of political commentators with links to the alt-right as if they are fact. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:40, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
So, Can I write, "According to the Westminster Institute, while spreading Islam, if anybody obstructs the jihadist, it is considered as an attack on Islam. You are, as a result, already in a defensive stance and the opposing side has not even used a gun. War is therefore started just because someone else chooses not to follow Islam."-Haani40 (talk) 12:42, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
They are an RS for what they say, but this might well be a wp:undue issue. Slatersteven (talk) 12:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Where do you want to use this, and in what context? The Westminster Institute is not a notable body or authority, so their opinion on anything is really irrelevant. Canterbury Tail talk 12:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
As I said, thus really maybe more of an undue than RS question. Slatersteven (talk) 12:52, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Why not both? There are 0 indications of reliability here, it’s the ravings of an ideologue “published” by fellow ideologues. It can both be obviously in violation of DUE and of RS. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 13:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
I will not add it if it is undue but can I add it to the Divisions of the world in Islam article with the title. "Views of Westminster Institute" (like I said, I will not add it if it is undue)?-Haani40 (talk) 13:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
So I guess you guys believe that it shouldn't be used?-Haani40 (talk) 13:02, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
This seems to be the case, yes. Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
I also agree with not citing this source in the Kafir article. By way of aside, the proposed prose seems like too close of a paraphrasing. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:01, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
The publisher looks very fringe to me, and highly unlikely to have ever been cited as a reliable source by other reliable sources. I'd say find better sources. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
@Haani40, the author is not exactly an expert, so I would try to find a different source for this. Gorka relies on The Quranic Concept of Power by S. K. Malik to make this assertion, so you could use that book and attribute the claim. Alaexis¿question? 06:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure The Quranic Concept of Power would be considered a reliable source in this context either; S. K. Malik was known as a soldier and military officer, not a religious studies scholar, historian/sociologist/anthropologist of Islam, or Muslim theologian. It at least seems to not be the most authoritative reliable source possible. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Well, he's a practitioner rather than a scholar, but if his book is cited by scholars it might still be a good source. Alaexis¿question? 07:18, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
The question is a bit of a moot point now that the editor has been sockblocked. Alpha3031 (t • c) 07:25, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
Lot of socks trying to make Islam look bad on Wikipedia lately, eh? Simonm223 (talk) 13:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
The hostility that various sectors of the project bear toward religion in general and Islam in particular is unfortunate. Perhaps this is a reminder for the community to be vigorous about the quality of sources used to document Islam and Muslim people/events/groups/etc. Islamophobic publications and "countercult" organizations can give themselves official-sounding names like "Westminster Institute". Islamophobic tropes can appear in journalism, even in journalism considered 'mainsteam'. It's better to prioritize high-quality academic sources: books, articles, chapters, etc. written by scholars, especially those with PhD training, such as in history, religious studies, literary criticism, anthropology, etc. and especially when published in peer-reviewed journals or academic presses. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 22:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources amongst Aussie regional and industry news sites

A good Wednesday to you all.

I'm looking to use articles found on the following news sites. They're not listed amongst the dreaded deprecated or anything. Are they okay to use?

1. https://www.nationaltribune.com.au/topics/australian/ 2. https://www.theleader.com.au/ 3. https://themusicnetwork.com/

MatthewDalhousie (talk) 02:15, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. Going by the about pages, the St George and Sutherland Shire Leader seems to be a fairly normal WP:NEWSORG and The Music Network a specialist magazine. Both of them would enjoy the same standard treatment, reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors) [...] reporting from less-established outlets is generally considered less reliable unless otherwise discussed (which I suppose they haven't been). The National Tribune though, it is unclear to me if they have any editorial review process. On the other hand, most of the articles seem to be cited to a press release (out of the ones I looked at), so you may as well cite the press release assuming it's appropriate to use WP:PRIMARY sources for whatever you're doing. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Can you be more specific to uses please? Simonm223 (talk) 11:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Thinking of one or two BLPs in the music/arts/charity scene, so just want to see if there's enough reliable source material around. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 00:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Is this source reliable? --> Neuropsychiatric Symptoms of Lyme Disease

Hi! I am interested in adding a section to the Lyme disease article on neuropsychiatric symptoms. One of the sources I was thinking on using was an overview. I am not sure if this source abides by wikipedias source rules. If someone could check it out and let me know if it is okay to include along other meta-analyses, that would be super helpful! Here is the link: https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/6/3/104 Miafclark (talk) 15:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about Healthcare specifically, MDPI journals are usually a bit hit-and-miss but it's not like we've banned it or anything. As long as it doesn't seem too WP:EXCEPTIONAL it should be fine. Alpha3031 (t • c) 09:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I don't see an issue with this source. Looks fine to use and if you think it needs attribution, that would work too. Ramos1990 (talk) 03:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Use of SPS at Integral theory

I'm concerned about use of a self-published website called "Integral World" which is the work of Frank Visser. While he has published works, I don't think he rises to the level of subject matter expert as required by the exception which would allow the use of his website as a source. Also, Wilber, who is being criticized by Visser, is still living, which makes the use of the SME exception even more dubious. Skyerise (talk) 09:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Visser's site is about Wilber's work, not the person. Visser's site is the central hub of discussions regarding Wilber's work, as also noticed by published authors like Mark Hofman. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 11:20, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
I agree that this is an SPS, but his book Ken Wilber: Thought as Passion was published by a reputable academic press, and the book appears to be on this subject, so he might just pass as an SME. It would be much better to reference the actual published book rather than the website. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 11:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Iazzzi: thearabianpost.com/ipanewspack.com

Came across this edit and decided to look a bit closer. All of @Iazzzi's edits seem to be additions of citations to these two websites which share an ownership. thearabianpost.com is particularly cited quite extensively on Wikipedia but does not seem to rise much above the level of content farms. Iazzzi's account seems to exclusively used to add spam and I think both addresses should be blocked as spam. Avgeekamfot (talk) 10:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Beyond the advertisement-heavy content-farm appearance of the website itself, a little bit of digging reveals two concerning bits:
  • One; this appears to be their parent, and they bill themselves as a marketing/content creation firm rather than a news firm. That's a bit suspicious.
  • Two; most of their articles lack authors, while the following warning appears at the end of some:
The content powered by our AI models is produced through sophisticated algorithms, and while we strive for accuracy, it may occasionally contain a few minor issues. We appreciate your understanding that AI-generated content is an evolving technology, and we encourage users to provide feedback if any discrepancies are identified. As this feature is currently in beta testing, your insights play a crucial role in enhancing the overall quality and reliability of our service. We thank you for your collaboration and understanding as we work towards delivering an increasingly refined and accurate user experience
Assuming this indicates said articles are AI-generated, then yeah, they've got no place on Wikipedia. The Kip 18:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Verifyable handwritten letters from historical figures

I have transcribed a collection of letters written by family members as well as famous people to and from family members. These deal with construction of the CNW railroad across Iowa between 1860 and 1875. I have donated the originals to the CNW historical society and they have published an article from them. I have been told by 'teahouse' that they are not allowed but my 'common sense' tells me that letters written at the time of events are more reliable than books written about events years later. MarkWHowe (talk) 14:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

You should read our guidance on the use of primary sources. In particular:

Primary sources are often difficult to use appropriately. Although they can be both reliable and useful in certain situations, they must be used with caution in order to avoid original research. Although specific facts may be taken from primary sources, secondary sources that present the same material are preferred. Large blocks of material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Looking at the Teahouse discussion that you started, what you were told there is that primary sources are not sufficient on their own to justify the existence of a Wikipedia article. This is correct: Wikipedia's aim as an encyclopedia is to summarise existing knowledge found in secondary sources, so if no secondary sources have written about a topic then it probably isn't suitable for a Wikipedia article. You say in the Teahouse discussion "previous historians have missed details and made wrong assumptions that need correcting": this is not what Wikipedia is for. If you want to correct a misconception which has not previously been addressed by reliable sources, you would be better off publishing an article in the CNW historical society's journal which might then be cited by Wikipedia. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Did you note that an article has indeed been published in the CNWHS journal? That is also in contention re citeability. MarkWHowe (talk) 15:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
We now have two journal articles which can be cited. I will probably cite them, since one is available in pdf format, and see what happens. Does that make sense? MarkWHowe (talk) 15:17, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Very helpful, thank you. MarkWHowe (talk) 15:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
I have been told by 'teahouse' that they are not allowed but my 'common sense' tells me that letters written at the time of events are more reliable than books written about events years later.
My dearest, Brunhilde
The demon machine is coming. I fear we may have to move to the deepest forest of Ohio to be free of the Iron Horse's reign of terror and modernity. Enclosed you will find a three dollar, which should be enough to provide for our 7 children and your sister while arrange for transport next month.
Your Husband
James Reliable
1806
This 1806 letter clearly proves that demons exists and often possess machines. It also proves that Ohio's forest have protective abilities/demon deterrents. 3$ was also enough to feed 9 people for a month in 1806.
OR, maybe James Reliable was a single railroad worker who hated his job and spent his free time high on opium wroting letters to his fictional family while high as a kite?
That's why secondary sources are needed. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Yes! Common sense! MarkWHowe (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Alternatively, the Antebellum culture of folk occultism and diabolism produced for James Reliable the phenomenological experience of interpreting trains as apocalyptic harbingers. Reliable also seems to have tapped into a concurrent stream of Christian theology that emphasized the "Book of Nature" (or natural world) as a sacred space on par with the Bible's sanctity, playing into a cultural/theological trope of nature versus industry (albeit a bit earlier than I might expect). What's common sense to us in 2024 might not have been as common in 1806.
That's to say, I hope that helps demonstrate how this same (hypothetical) primary source can be interpreted in different ways when subject to different analytical perspectives. While it's entirely possible some Wikipedians have the necessary academic training as, say, historians or religious studies scholars necessary to weigh the evidence and arrive at a conclusion that fits the consensus of the field, such qualifications aren't universal. Rather than get bogged down in debates about what a primary source does or doesn't mean, or why it is or isn't significant, on Wikipedia we leave that work to secondary sources. Wikipedia's aim is to learn from and summarize the interpretations and research of journalists, historians, etc. rather than advance primary research of our own. This is a different purpose and praxis than is done in conventional academia. A historian writing a monograph or journal article naturally would, even while learning from secondary sources, consider engaging directly with primary sources ideal and necessary for the core of their work. And as you hint at, proximity to the events is sometimes used as an easy heuristic for dependability—a story passed around decades later is harder to trust than a diary entry written the day it happened. However, all that is part of the historian's enterprise. Wikipedia's task is quite different.
That you donated these letters and transcriptions to the Chicago & North Western Historical Society is awesome, and that they provided grounding for a journal article is even cooler! And journal articles can, in general, be cited on Wikipedia (just be sure to follow all our guidelines and policies while doing so). But there being journal articles about part of a letter collection doesn't necessarily make every letter fair game to cite to fill out an article—that becomes original research. This isn't to say original research in other venues is bad; of course it isn't, since that's what academic history depends on. It's just that over time, the Wikipedia community developed a consensus that that isn't what the Wikipedia project is for. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 05:13, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Hear, hear! Headbomb (alt) (talk) 14:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Grounding for TWO journal articles is even more cool, altho' being the same author detracts slightly I suppose. I never knew about the first one until someone here found it. That's the beauty of a community and why I am so anxious to get something published.
I have seen transcripts of letters used in Wikip as citations a number of times. I'm wondering if it is stipulation to the fact that the writer wrote those words, not that they are necessarily true. Or that the letterhead establishes a fact. Or a date and a signature. How about a scanned copy of a printed document. Or any document for that matter.
Which brings up the matter of adding documents/photos; when I try to upload a jpg it says it can't. I'm missing a protocol. MarkWHowe (talk) 20:39, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Concerning politico report on the nyt

Biden officials "described reporters who refused to correct minor errors or mischaracterizations in stories". https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/25/new-york-times-biden-white-house-00154219 (t · c) buidhe 16:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The broader article describes a long-running spat between the Biden administration and the NYT, with the administration in particular not having much love for the Times. Without any details about what those "minor errors or mischaracterisations" are that the officials believe are there I would not see it as any real cause for concern. BilledMammal (talk) 16:26, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Although I have some reservations about the NYT, I have a lot more reservations about politicos. Selfstudier (talk) 16:31, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Agreeing with the others, I also think that it’s generally harmless FortunateSons (talk) 10:37, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
While I wouldn't necessarily say the matter is urgent, I'm not so sure I'd call the Times's penchant for distorting "both-sides-ing" harmless either. I'm not very inclined toward this presidential administration's aggrieved sentiments. I'm more attuned to the adjacent observation that the Times tends to downplay the activities of crypto-fascist factions of American politics in a quixotic pursuit of an artificial 'balance'. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 23:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
  • As I always say for things like this... individual incidents themselves don't matter directly; what matters is whether it affected the source's overall reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In this case it seems unlikely. --Aquillion (talk) 23:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
    Agree with you and Selfstudier. No source is perfect but the Times has a good reputation and this particular issue is almost comically minor and explicitly called “petty” in the source. Dronebogus (talk) 03:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
  • US Presidential administrations bickering with the press over minor issues and characterizations is par for the course... Its happened in every modern administration and likely will continue to happen until either the office or the free press cease to exist. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
    Then it’ll just be the President of California trying to censor the press, while we debate it over in Switzerland. Dronebogus (talk) 13:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

insidethegames.biz (2nd review)

I am starting a second RFC on insidethegames.biz (used HTTPS links HTTP links in about 6,670 articles), because the change in ownership last year has resulted in the website being more soft towards Umar Kremlev and more critical of the IOC (according to https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1144966/umar-kremlev-has-won-economic-prices). As an uninvolved editor in the subject of the Olympics and Paralympics, how should we classify this source? Also let me know how to improve this RfC: this is the first time I made such a request. --Minoa (talk) 17:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of this book

Please evaluate the reliability of this book Dictionary of Wars. as the author is a specialist in infectious diseases, is assistant clinical professor of medicine at Yale University [9] not any scholar of history. Jonharojjashi (talk) 10:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

The Dictionary of Wars appears to be a reliable tertiary source as it is published by Taylor & Francis, a reputable publisher. A review here described it as "a work of formidable scholarship" but finds some faults. The author being a retired professor of medicine does not make the book unreliable and he acknowledges in the preface that several other people helped write the book. However WP:RS says Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources and WP:TERTIARY says that Within any given tertiary source, some entries may be more reliable than others. TSventon (talk) 11:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Thanks Jonharojjashi (talk) 11:24, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
The 2nd revised edition would also be a lot more reliable than the first edition. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Jonharojjashi Having read the Librarything link more carefully Dr. Mary-Louise Scully is "a specialist in infectious diseases ... assistant clinical professor of medicine at Yale University", while George Childs Kohn "has written and edited numerous reference works". The connection seem to be that Scully wrote a foreword to Kohn's Encyclopedia of Plague and Pestilence. TSventon (talk) 18:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Is North Data reliable?

I would like to know if the information on North Data is reliable enough to be added to the list and as sources. Sönke Joppien (talk) 11:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Can’t speak to reliability (although, like all sources, it would depend on the context of how and when you want to cite it). I can say that we wouldn’t add it to the RSP list. RSP is for sources that have repeatedly been discussed on this board (the “P” in RSP stands for “Perennial”), and North Data has not. Blueboar (talk) 11:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
I am not sure if it’s unreliable or merely not a source for this context, but it just summarises available information (either by hand or automatically, I’m not sure on that); as far as I know, there does not seem to be added value. What do you intend to use them for? FortunateSons (talk) 16:18, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
It would depend on what content you wish to support with it, reliability requires context. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

HalloweenDailyNews

A source has been called into question on the Michael Myers (Halloween) page. The source home is "HalloweenDailyNews.com". The website in question itself does not appear particularly reliable, but they seem to get direct interviews with horror celebrities. The question is about interviews they conducted and whether they can be used as sources because the overall website does not look reputable. The source being used in the article is is this interview. It has been my understanding for a long time, that direct, one-on-one interviews can be used as sources even if the website itself would not have passed the reliability scrutiny for original content it produces.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I definitely want to be aware of this rule too. I've always felt that was against WP:SPS. I feel like that as its discussing David Gordon Green motivations for the actor from the actor's point of view, we might want a better source here. Horror as a genre is one of the most studied film genres of the 21st century, so I feel like there is going to be some better quality source than this site. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:24, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Italian lawyer on Azov Neo-Nazi

There is an article in CALCIO: Ultrà ucraini, dalla tregua al Battaglione Azov - East Journal saying "Yet, it's with the contribution of Sect 82 - an ultranationalist far-right group of Metalist football fans, also accused of Nazi sympathies - that by the end of February 2014, the entity that would later give rise to the Azov Battalion is formed."
The author is "He has been a lawyer since 2009. Passionate about sport with a particular interest in its social implications, he has combined his professional activity with an in-depth study of issues and events, sporting and otherwise, in the Eastern European area, also collaborating with the Radio Flash broadcaster and with the Fan's Magazine."
The East Journal website is registered on private with hidden credentials. The "East Journal" has no office no phone number.
The source is used to support "parts of the Azov Brigade had its roots in a group of ultras of FC Metalist Kharkiv named "Sect 82" (1982 is the year of the founding of the group),[29] which had neo-Nazi leanings according to Eastjournal's Paolo Reineri.[34]" sentence in Azov Brigade article. There are numerous academic sources in the article and none mentions this. Yet editors insist the source is reliable [10] : Talk:Azov Brigade#c-RadioactiveBoulevardier-20240311145700-Manyareasexpert-20240311092600
Should we update Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources with EastJournal? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:36, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Eastjournal is officially registered as a media outlet (East Journal è una testata registrata presso il Tribunale di Torino) and you can find their editorial team here. It's used a few times on English wikipedia and quite extensively on the Italian one. Here the NYT quotes their chief editor and describes it as an "online newspaper focused on Central and Eastern Europe." I see no reasons whatsoever to doubt its reliability. Alaexis¿question? 12:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
The perennial sources list is only for sources that have been discussed many times, and I can't find any prior discussions on Eastjournal.
As to its reliability I can't see a reason to think it unreliable outright. It's a slightly unusual setup[11] but seems appropriately staffed and there's editorial oversite.[12] It's use by other sources such as NYT (as Alexis noted above) is also in its favour. The specific claim of a connection to football hooligans can be found in articles by Oko.press,[13] Independent,[14], and The Guardian.[15] -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:45, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
> The specific claim of a connection to football hooligans can be found in articles by Oko.press,[118] Independent,[119], and The Guardian.[120]
Any of these talking about "neo-Nazi leanings"? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:38, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
So I went and checked a second time in case I was hallucinating, but yes all three speak specifically about such issues. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
None of your sources is talking about "Sect 82 which had neo-Nazi leanings".
Oko.press doesn't mention Sect 82 at all.
Independent only says known as Sect 82, who went on help lead the Patriot of Ukraine and Social National Assembly far-right groups.
Guardian only says "Metalist Kharkiv’s Sect 82 ultras became the Azov militia – initially with far-right loyalties – in armed combat against the Russian-backed uprising". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Whether it's spelt Sect or Sekt it's still the same group, as to the rest of your want to use far right nationalist instead of Nazi specifically go ahead but it is in the East Journal source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
@Alaexis : [16] : note how two sources of dubious reliability does not relieve us from the need to attribute the dubious and exceptional claim not found in reliable reportings. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
These sources are not dubious and the claim is not exceptional, here CNN mentions the "neo-Nazi leanings" [17] as well. Alaexis¿question? 11:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
We discuss specific claim regarding Sect 82 here and CNN article has no mention of it. And there is a difference between claims made by a journalist or a lawyer and claims which are reliable per WP:RS. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 11:38, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
OKO.press is considered a generally reliable source per the recent RFC found here, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 432#RFC: OKO.press. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:48, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
See? That's how you argument Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 432#c-Rosguill-20240306215700-Survey_(OKO.press) that the source may be reliable. By providing other reliable sources referring to it. Which is not the case for EastJournal.
Thus, we even attribute conclusions by academic researchers in a corresponding field, published by academic publishers. The reader deserves to know it's a journalist labeling Sect 82 as such (providing no analysis no sources no confirmation for such, btw.). ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
As is stated earlier I did find other reliable works using East Journal for citation purposes, and my reply was in regard to you saying "two dubious sources" about this edit[18] when one of those sources was OKO.press. There are times WP:INTEXT attribution should be used and there are times it shouldn't but that's an issue of NPOV and not RS, so it should be had on the articles talk page. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:51, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I did find other reliable works using East Journal for citation purposes
NYT article only includes opinion of Matteo Zola, and NYT says no more than his occupation as "the editor of East Journal", and not using the website itself: “Orban is the king of opportunists,” said Matteo Zola, a journalist and the editor of East Journal, an online newspaper focused on Central and Eastern Europe. “Hungary wants to show itself as the center around which one can imagine building a dialogue between Moscow and Europe or the West. And the pope’s trip legitimizes this role.” Pope Returns to Hungary, to Delight of Viktor Orban - The New York Times (nytimes.com) .
Even this doesn't make Zola an authority on Orban. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Ok. I dont see why you're quoting a comment from me about sourced other than NYT and then discussing NYT. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
As is stated earlier I did find other reliable works using East Journal for citation purposes - I was assuming you are talking about NYT. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
Sorry my earlier comment was obviously unclear, I meant I have found it being used as a citation in other works by reliable publishers. For instance Springer,[19][20] and Routledge.[21][22][23] -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:04, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
Noted. It's still wrong to assume that a lawyer, published on anonymously-owned website, has reliability in nationalism questions comparable to nationalism scholars, published in academic sources. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Itoght be that it's not the same quality of source as an academic work, but that wouldn't make it unreliable. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Is intellectualtakeout.org a reliable source?

At issue is this edit, in which a user has restored a statement that is referencing this source. It appears to me that the source is an opinion piece on intellectualtakeout.org and does not qualify as a reliable source. Can anyone else weigh in, please? Fred Zepelin (talk) 21:44, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of the reliability of the source (which looks questionable), it doesn't even remotely support the text it is supposedly being cited for. It is nothing but spin being put on a video clip. Nobody but Miltimore, the author of the piece, states that 'Bridges was detained by students'. Bridges doesn't say that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Thank you AndyTheGrump (talk). I agree. I don't want to edit-war with the user that made that change, but would welcome anyone else from this board working on that article. Fred Zepelin (talk) 22:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Video evidence exists of Bridges being detained at 11:30 in The Complete Evergreen Story (13) documenary by Benjamin Boyce. It is available for free on youtube. Bridges refuses to admit that because it would undermine his decision making skills as an administrator. Smefs (talk) 22:26, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Have you ever actually read Wikipedia:Reliable sources? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
No. On the first page I see “Why Karl Marx Desperately Needed Jordan Peterson’s Advice” “What ‘RoboCop’ and the Bible Teach About Rights” (both by Miltimore) and “Did COVID-19 Usher in a Global Government?” There’s also articles about how we need to bring back cursive and what is probably climate change denial. Typical (and slightly atypical) rightwing crackpot stuff. Dronebogus (talk) 00:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
The “Feeding Minds, Pursuing Truth” tagline already doesn’t inspire confidence, but yeah, echoing what @Dronebogus stated - it doesn’t seem much better than Infowars or any other alt-right garbage. You’re correct in removing it. The Kip 02:56, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source?

Link: (1)
If this is a reliable source, can I use it to refer to a king as “the great”? Based Kashmiri (talk) 14:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

NO as it seems SPS. Slatersteven (talk) 14:06, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Ok, thank you!! Based Kashmiri (talk) 14:46, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
In fact, that material is sourced to "Wikipedia Contributors," so it would fall afoul of WP:REFLOOP. CapitalSasha ~ talk 14:08, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
That is correct. Simonm223 (talk) 23:48, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Reliability of WION

Following both previous discussions at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 315#Is WION a reliable source? and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 335#WION News, should WION News can be considered as unreliable? 103.230.81.135 (talk) 03:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment I would kindly ask you to add the voting options used for RfC on this noticeboard. FortunateSons (talk) 20:16, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

What is the reliability of WION, also known as World is One News?

Unlike Daily Mail, which is considered unreliable and depreciated. WION is an Indian news channel owned by Essel Group, which also owns Zee Media. The site contains extensive India-related articles, celebrity facts, and others does not itself as a generally reliable source.

wionews.com: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com --85.94.24.29 (talk) 21:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Option 3. I watched a lot of WION before, and I stopped watching it as it is geared towards the ruling BJP party. Ahri.boy (talk) 22:08, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Notified: Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics. — Newslinger talk 06:32, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Option 3 per Ahri.boy. This outlet has some credibility and purpose back in the day. Now it is just a mouthpiece of BJP. Ratnahastin (talk)
  • Option 3. Past discussions on WION in the notice-board expose it as a political propaganda mouth-piece of BJP party. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 20:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
    have they gone down hill recently or is it just that everything looks reasonable compared to Republic TV? Irtapil (talk) 03:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Option 3 Used to be a fan of their talk shows, but over the years they have leaned towards political propaganda spreading. IMO, Non-political coverage (of non-contentious topics) can be considered reliable, however. X (talk) 07:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Option 2 or "neutral" if that is an option? I wouldn't call them generally reliable, but I wouldn't specifically label them as "unreliable" either because they're possibly above average compared to some Indian TV News (e.g. much less pro Modi bias than "Republic"). The additional consideration is that they're particularly unreliable on China. Irtapil (talk) 19:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC) revised Irtapil (talk) 03:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment: I don't know enough about this to give an option, but I did find this study( State nationalism or popular nationalism? Analysing media coverage of TikTok ban on mainstream Indian TV news channels), which notes the editorial position of WION news did not appear different from that of Republic TV, which is currently deprecated, and the nature of the coverage was to justify the strategy adopted by the Indian government, rather than providing impartial information to the people. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 01:34, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Help with this list if any is reliable on Malawian articles

I currently came up with this list here due its frequent use on Malawian sources but then not sure if any is as it says it is. Note that the list has links to the sites. The sites have been widely used on Wikipedia to support different Malawian biographies, incidents, events and such. I would love to hear if any on the list is considered reliable or unreliable. Thanks.--Tumbuka Arch (talk) 03:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Opinion piece by historian Satish Chandra

Guru Tegh Bahadur's martyrdom [24] by Satish Chandra is currently used to support some historiographic analysis in the Tegh Bahadur article, including the fact that a certain Ghulam Hussain Khan portrayed the guru rather negatively. User:Alvin1783 wants to remove it from the article (see the discussion at [25]), saying that both Chandra and Ghulam Hussain are unreliable and/or incorrect. My impression is that Chandra is a recognized historian, but the source is admittedly an opinion piece. Ghulam Hussain himself is not cited, but his account is quoted and analyzed in the opinion piece and thus in the article. More input would be appreciated, as this discussion has already exhausted the patience of one other editor. Perception312 (talk) 22:16, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Probably the best course of action would be to find a scholarly sources describing Ghulam Hussain's account and its potential problems, but I considering that Satish Chandra is an expert, I think that this source can be considered reliable. Note that something can be reliable but not WP:DUE, I have no opinion on the latter. Alaexis¿question? 07:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source?

I wanto add this, "If a female claims that a man forced her into adultery, that is, "rape" without providing witnesses or physical evidence, then she is subjected to the hadd (punishment) of slander which is eighty lashes if the slanderer is free (as opposed to a slave).[1]" to the, Rape in Islamic law article. Question is if it is a reliable source for that sentence in that article?- Khaanate (talk) 17:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

That is a primary source, Islamic law is not a fact, it is an ambiguous topic which has many interpretations. If we take, for example, the concept of the hijab and modesty, vastly different understandings of what this might constitute exist. You can not source a statement in wiki voice to that website, though it is valid for its own opinion, if attributed, where that might be WP:DUE (and I have doubts over whether it is).
A much better option would be to find a source which is published in a reputable academic journal and discusses objectively the various interpretations of different scholars and sheikhs on this question. You can then add these views to the article, attributed to the people who hold them, without wikipedia stating that a single "true" Islamic law exists.Boynamedsue (talk) 19:45, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Failing to produce four witnesses in accusation of rape". إسلام ويب - سعادة تمتد. 2 May 2016. Retrieved 12 May 2024.Quote=“If a woman claimed that a man forced her into adultery while it is inconceivable for such a man to commit this crime (because he is known for his piety and righteousness) without providing witnesses or physical evidence, then she is subject to the hadd of slander.....which is eighty lashes if the offender is free (as opposed to a slave).”

Guidestar.org/Candid.org

The site provides information on non-profit organizations. I'm specifically wondering if a non-profit's info about leadership roles are reliable. I'm working with some editors who are edit-warring on United States Student Association. One editor has just added a name to the "Principle Officer" role in the infobox in the article, and is citing Guidestar. I don't know enough about Guidestar to determine if the information there is definitive enough to cite. Joyous! Noise! 20:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Guidestar usually depends on 990 forms and/or the org supplying the info and the 990 form for financial Year 2021 lists "Eddie Acosta" as Principal Officer (and also gives his title as 'Chair') https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237211922/202243339349300019/full
I note Guidestar does not list a year on its info (and it has "Edwin Acosta") and including a reference and a year would be wise. According to ProPublica's non-profit explorer, Acosta has been Chair or Co-Chair since 2017 (with the other Co-Chair being Tiffany Loftin) (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237211922 [ProPublica also has the advantage of linking to the relevant 990]). Erp (talk) 03:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Many thanks! Joyous! Noise! 03:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I also note ProPublica is a listed reliable source and does not require a login. Erp (talk) 03:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

News sources in general

This seems to come up again and again… someone questions the reliability of a news outlet based on headlines or opinion/op-ed content, and we need to (again) explain that both are already considered unreliable - regardless of the outlet. Do we need to revisit/rewrite the section on the reliability of news outlets to clarify this? Or is it simply that people are not actually reading the policy? Blueboar (talk) 13:12, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The reliability is not binary yes/no and is also not assessed in a vacuum, but in relation to other sources available. For example, BBC "is considered generally reliable" WP:RSPBBC when no better sources presented, but academic works are of higher reliability if available. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
That’s not what I am asking about. I am asking whether we need to better clarify HOW to assess the reliability of news outlets. Blueboar (talk) 13:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
WP:NEWSORG plus WP:CONTEXTMATTERS seems fine. I think there is an implicit belief in circulation along the lines of "this newspaper published someone's bad opinion, therefore the newspaper must be bad because a good newspaper wouldn't allow such a bad opinion to be published." I've got some sympathy for that belief in truly egregious cases, but I don't think we've seen recent examples of a mainstream newsorg publishing opinions so beyond the pale that the entire publication must be brought into question. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 14:00, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
I think you're interpreting policy too black-and-white: while neither headlines nor opinion pieces are reliable for facts in articles, if a source's reliability is in question here the fact that that source does or doesn't fact check headlines and opinion pieces is evidence for its reliability in general. An organization that allows opinion writers to make up total fiction is likely to be less reliable than one that doesn't. Loki (talk) 14:00, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
I disagree somewhat… opinion pieces should always be used with in-text attribution, and their reliability should be based on the reputation of the author for fact checking and accuracy, not the outlet. As for headlines - they are written to grab the eye, not to convey accurate information. They are never reliable. Blueboar (talk) 14:26, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Fwiw, WP:HEADLINES exists. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:35, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
We're all aware of WP:HEADLINES; all I'm saying is that while it's expected that headlines won't be reliable for facts, in discussions at WP:RSN an organization fact-checking headlines is a strong indication of reliability overall, and conversely allowing complete fiction in headlines is an indication of unreliability overall. Loki (talk) 18:32, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Disagree… yes, an unreliable source will often have inaccurate headlines to match their inaccurate reporting… but it does not work in reverse. we can not say that reliable sources will have accurate headlines. Lots of very reliable news sources have crap headlines. Nor can we say that an accurate headline (if such exists) indicates that an accurate story is attached. Headlines are not intended to convey reliable information, they are intended to catch the eye and get the reader to read the story. Blueboar (talk) 18:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
In theory the entire story is intended to get readers to read it, and headlines can serve as a useful warning sign when an organization is particularly susceptible to that pressure. Loki (talk) 20:51, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
This right here. The editorial oversight should only be considered to cover the article content, the headlines are what marketing monkeys come up with to sell papers. Its why a source being clickbait-y in how they present their articles doesn't make the source unreliable, we judge the real content of the article. — Masem (t) 00:34, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
I've noticed that sometimes people on this website seem to demand exhaustive explanations of unbelievably basic concepts. I don't know if anything can really be done about this kind of deliberate stupidity: maybe we need to create a litany of policies with names like
and so on and so on. It seems like basic common sense that a newspaper article saying "[...] and morons like Joe Smith claim that [...]" is a statement of the author/editor's opinion, and it does not somehow magically become an objective fact by virtue of the newspaper being prestigious. But I have seen people claim this. Meanwhile, I have also heard people claim that such statements are proof that the newspaper is unreliable, because look at this objective claim they're making about Smith being a moron, and there's no way to prove this true or false. I don't know if there is any way to fix this, besides to explain patiently that every website in the world is not Wikipedia, and every single word in every single newspaper article in the history of mankind does not reflect a considered editorial opinion on behalf of the publication. jp×g🗯️ 00:10, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
This is a reasonable point. Perhaps we should create WP:NOJURISDICTION, pointing out that wikipedia's rules on content do not apply to reliable sources?Boynamedsue (talk) 06:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:NEWSORGINDIA

I'd to see the discussions that occurred when implementing WP:NEWSORGINDIA. I attempted to find it but couldn't locate any. @CNMall41:—Saqib (talk I contribs) 12:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Newslinger, any idea? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
It was add in August 2023 here by @UtherSRG and appears to be based on WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 411#Three sources from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aryen Suresh Kute. S0091 (talk) 19:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
That is correct. Community discussion affirmed it. - UtherSRG (talk) 20:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
It was recently discussed at the WikiProject Film Indian cinema task force here and implemented at WP:ICTFSOURCES. I would have to search RSN but believe it was discussed around company Wikipedia pages and those trying to game the system. --CNMall41 (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
CNMall41, What do you mean by company Wikipedia pages? The issue at hand is that on several Pakistani-related AfDs, some editors are simply dismissing WP:NEWSORGINDIA, just because this guideline doesn't mentions any Pakistani sources or Pakistan itself. So I was thinking it might be beneficial to consider updating NEWSORGINDIA to explicitly include Pakistan. It seems like some folks are hesitant to apply common sense in these situations. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 17:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I am very familiar with the issue at hand. In fact, I keep getting pinged into it (please stop). You asked about a discussion at RSN and I am trying to point out where you may find it. So again, I believe it may have been part of discussions with company related pages but I do not recall exactly when it took place. --CNMall41 (talk) 17:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Just because it's written specifically about India doesn't mean the general principle doesn't apply elsewhere. It's been discussed in regard to Nigerian sources, and I'm sure there are similar issue with some sources regardless of the country of origin. It's also true that they are not necessarily unreliable for everything, a source that states 'is the most fantastic, charitable, awe inspiring, handsome, weathly, actor of his generation or any others' could still be reliable for the less contentious 'is an actor'. It's more that such sources use language that isn't encyclopedic and hang on details that are likely to minor to add to the article. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Pakistani Sources

Hey, please guide if sources from the following sites be considered WP: Reliable Sources;

1. People Magazine, Used in Fatima Feng
2. The odd one Magazine, Used in Fatima Feng
3. We News, Used in Tumhare Husn Ke Naam
4. FHM Pakistan, Used in Tumhare Husn Ke Naam
5. Parrot Analytics, Used in Tumhare Husn Ke Naam

Looping in Saqib. Sameeerrr (talk) 17:38, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Sameeerrr, IMO, no. Clearly unreliable. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 17:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
What may be pertinent is a link to the deletion discussion on film related sources from the Pakistani film project. Do you still have that list?--CNMall41 (talk) 17:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
CNMall41, This one? Wikipedia:WikiProject Pakistan/Pakistani sources —Saqib (talk I contribs) 17:52, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Yes. The discussion here. Do you still have a list of the references listed there? --CNMall41 (talk) 17:55, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
CNMall41, I don't keep junk. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 18:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Okay. Sorry for asking. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
CNMall41, No need to sorry, pal. Can you ask for its undeletion and move it in my NS. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 18:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Saqib, you would need to do so yourself if you want it. Please do not ping me here. I have given my comments so don't want to be dragged back into it. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
WP:NEWSORGINDIA applies to at least some of these. The People Magazine reference stands out as a WP:FAKEREF to me as it is a Wordpress blog (note the site icon) that stole the People Magazine logo and pawned it off as if it's associated with the main People (magazine). Anyone who claims that NEWSORGINDIA only applies to specific publications within India need to look no further than this. --CNMall41 (talk) 17:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, it's a WordPress based. What about other sites? Sameeerrr (talk) 18:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Sameeerrr, Use WP:COMMONSENSE. They're all CLEARLY WP:SPAM sources, just internet business sites masquerading as magazines or news outlets. In reality, they have nothing to do with journalism. —Saqib (talk I contribs) 18:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
See this article about peoplemagazine.com.pk, fhmpakistan.com and FHM Pakistan Pulblications. Like CNMall states above, they are WP:FAKEREF, with peoplemagazine.com.pk faking as if it is affiliated with People Magazine (but note the logo is not the same as the real People; it's a poor rip-off) and fhmpakistan.com faking as if it is affiliated with now defunct FHM. For the others, The odd one Magazine is a blog and Parrot Analytics is a commercial site offering their products and services (Contact us now to deploy demand-driven marketing, the only empirical earned media measure of your marketing spend.) We News might be reliable a secondary source if it is written by a journalist but this is press release with a role by-line of Web Desk so is a primary source. S0091 (talk) 16:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Got it, Thank you for the response! Sameeerrr (talk) 16:45, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
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